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The Answer to Southern Flounder

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cnaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2018 at 3:47pm
Hear, hear! on the lawsuits beginning. Of course, I wasn't wondering about the director Murphey's failure to utilize the proclamation authority which in SF's case would seem to be his responsibility to use, as he did provide the copious and repetitious, yet curiously disengenuous "rationalization" for his ensured torpidity on this relevant and urgently over-exploited SF situation, which was on its way to collapse a long time ago. The thing I was wondering about was how abject a failure can a governor's appointment be, right out of the box. I know todo would recommend a holding back of judgement and giving the benefit of the gigantic doubt here, but I have no such standing that my restraint could really color the system we've got one way or another, so I simply marvel at the fact that the concept of conservation of truly important public resources in N.C. is, on face, a nonstarter, and that a fisheries director tripping over himself to declare how nothing will be accomplished is par for the course, and his appointment seems to be a glimpse into the true nature of the governor's imprimatur, which is inscrutable, at the very least, especially if the governor's actual motives are resource friendly, which logic has reason to doubt,as well, seeing as who he has appointed and how they express whatever mandate to not act they must hold sacred, by their own words.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2018 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by Ray Brown Ray Brown wrote:

Floundermn....yes sir, but again, what the gillnets miss the pounds will sweep, they always have because flounder follow the same path to the sea each year. Those pound net placements aren't there because they are at the back door of someone's home.

As far as the giggers. Hmm....where were you last week when we were trying to take commercial fishing licenses from recs who simply want to gig all night with no limits?

Somehow I missed you asking for that improper use of holding a commercial license to stop. Were you fishing, out of town, or exactly what was it?   

I was supplimenting my income in Cape MayWinkThe problem isn't in my part of the state or i would be complaining just as some are down south.Albermarle area is the same as it's been for 28yrs just regulations has shifted fish size.Those same 12in fish we used to catch are still here arse deep.Let me set what we used to 10 yrs ago and i'll show you landings go up.We only caught lrg and jumbo from aug-mid oct then small fish make there push end of oct-dec so yeah its gonna look like on paper things are bad when from end of oct to dec we have to use 6in mesh when we used to fish 5-1/4in in fall you boys dont have a clue.Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2018 at 6:47pm
Gillnets aren't the problem,now if the fishery keep going uninterupted like 20yrs ago we might have a problem but you boys aren't going to convince me or anybody with half a brain that Gillnet effort is a problem in 2018.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2018 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by FLOUDERMN FLOUDERMN wrote:

Gillnets aren't the problem,now if the fishery keep going uninterupted like 20yrs ago we might have a problem but you boys aren't going to convince me or anybody with half a brain that Gillnet effort is a problem in 2018.

Stop being redundant
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2018 at 10:32pm
It's still a problem on red drum, undersized flounder, Striper, birds and turtles! It was 20 years ago and still is.

Edited by Bread Man 1 - 19 February 2018 at 10:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 10:36am
Originally posted by FLOUDERMN FLOUDERMN wrote:

Gillnets aren't the problem,now if the fishery keep going uninterupted like 20yrs ago we might have a problem but you boys aren't going to convince me or anybody with half a brain that Gillnet effort is a problem in 2018.
   Hmmm. Half a brain. I’m getting it now. Thx
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Bread Man 1 Bread Man 1 wrote:

It's still a problem on red drum, undersized flounder, Striper, birds and turtles! It was 20 years ago and still is.
Observer notes say otherwise for my area,when we went to 6in that cut bycatch way down almost non exsistent up this way its there for all to see.I dont know about down below Dare other than what hear from other fisherman and it isn't what some you boys claim it to be.You boys come on here swear up and down all species are overfished and near Collapse but tell clients the fishing is GREAT don't say ya'll don't cause ya'll do.And if they are near collapse why do you boys still target those being Recs catch way more drum way more trout way more stripers but you guys keep targeting those for your Clients a real steward that really thought all that to be true wouldn't keep hammering away now would theyBig smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 3:19pm
I caught stripers and reds last year and didn’t kill one. Where’s that other half a brain?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by kshivar kshivar wrote:

I caught stripers and reds last year and didn’t kill one. Where’s that other half a brain?
Yeah you did mortality rate isn't zero for Rec catch and releaseLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 3:33pm
does 6 inch catch sturgeon?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 3:48pm
Probably not but it is way lower than a gill net. I’ve seen many a dead or sick fish with a ring around his neck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 9:33am
I'm betting it does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:02am
Originally posted by kshivar kshivar wrote:

Probably not but it is way lower than a gill net. I’ve seen many a dead or sick fish with a ring around his neck.
Yep and ive seen many of fish swimming around with hooks and lips ripped off.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:24am
Originally posted by todobien todobien wrote:

does 6 inch catch sturgeon?
My observer records show diffirent,i was observed just about every morning for about a month by Marine PatrolBig smile no turtles no sturgeon just Carp and Gars and few menhaden!!Shocked

Edited by FLOUDERMN - 21 February 2018 at 10:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:55am
For the record-

§ 113-221.1.  Proclamations; emergency review.

(a) Chapter 150B of the General Statutes does not apply to proclamations issued under this Article.

(b) The Marine Fisheries Commission may delegate to the Fisheries Director the authority to issue proclamations suspending or implementing, in whole or in part, particular rules of the Commission that may be affected by variable conditions. These proclamations shall be issued by the Fisheries Director or by a person designated by the Fisheries Director. Except as provided in this subsection, all proclamations shall state the hour and date upon which they become effective and shall be issued at least 48 hours in advance of the effective date and time. A proclamation that prohibits the taking of certain fisheries resources for reasons of public health or that governs a quota-managed fishery may be made effective immediately upon issuance. A proclamation to reopen the taking of certain fisheries resources closed for reasons of public health shall be issued at least 12 hours in advance of the effective date and time of the reopening. A person who violates a proclamation that is made effective immediately upon issuance shall not be charged with a criminal offense for the violation if the violation occurred between the time of issuance and 48 hours after the issuance and the person did not have actual notice of the issuance of the proclamation. Fisheries resources taken or possessed by any person in violation of any proclamation may be seized regardless of whether the person had actual notice of the proclamation. A permanent file of the text of all proclamations shall be maintained in the office of the Fisheries Director. Certified copies of proclamations are entitled to judicial notice in any civil or criminal proceeding. The Fisheries Director shall make every reasonable effort to give actual notice of the terms of any proclamation to persons who may be affected by the proclamation. Reasonable effort includes a press release to communications media, posting of a notice at docks and other places where persons affected may gather, personal communication by inspectors and other agents of the Fisheries Director, and other measures designed to reach the persons who may be affected. It is a defense to an enforcement action for a violation of a proclamation that a person was prevented from receiving notice of the proclamation due to a natural disaster or other act of God occasioned exclusively by violence of nature without interference of any human agency and that could not have been prevented or avoided by the exercise of due care or foresight.

(c) All persons who may be affected by proclamations issued by the Fisheries Director are under a duty to keep themselves informed of current proclamations. It is no defense in any criminal prosecution for the defendant to show that the defendant in fact received no notice of a particular proclamation. In any prosecution for violation of a proclamation, or in which proof of matter contained in a proclamation is involved, the Department is deemed to have complied with publication procedures; and the burden is on the defendant to show, by the greater weight of the evidence, substantial failure of compliance by the Department with the required publication procedures.

(d) Pursuant to the request of five or more members of the Marine Fisheries Commission, the Chair of the Marine Fisheries Commission may call an emergency meeting of the Commission to review an issuance or proposed issuance of proclamations under the authority delegated to the Fisheries Director pursuant to subsection (b) of this section or to review the desirability of directing the Fisheries Director to issue a proclamation to prohibit or allow the taking of certain fisheries resources. At least 48 hours prior to any emergency meeting called pursuant to this subsection, a public announcement of the meeting shall be issued that describes the action requested by the members of the Marine Fisheries Commission. The Department shall make every reasonable effort to give actual notice of the meeting to persons who may be affected. After its review is complete, the Marine Fisheries Commission, consistent with its duty to protect, preserve, and enhance the commercial and sports fisheries G.S. 113-221.1 Page 2 resources of the State, may approve, cancel, or modify the previously issued or proposed proclamation under review or may direct the Fisheries Director to issue a proclamation that prohibits or allows the taking of certain fisheries resources. An emergency meeting called pursuant to this subsection and any resulting orders issued by the Marine Fisheries Commission are exempt from the provisions of Article 2A of Chapter 150B of the General Statutes. The decisions of the Marine Fisheries Commission shall be the final decision of the State and shall not be set aside on judicial review unless found to be arbitrary and capricious. (1915, c. 84, s. 21; 1917, c. 290, s. 7; C.S., s. 1878; 1925, c. 168, s. 2; 1935, c. 35; 1945, c. 776; 1953, cc. 774, 1134, 1251; 1963, c. 1097, s. 1; 1965, c. 957, s. 2; 1973, c. 1262, ss. 28, 86; c. 1331, s. 3; 1975, 2nd Sess., c. 983, s. 70; 1979, c. 388, s. 6; 1983, cc. 221, 619, 620; 1987, c. 641, ss. 7, 19; c. 827, s. 7; 1997-400, s. 4.3; 1998-225, s. 3.8; 2000-189, s. 9; 2003-154, s. 2.)


Edited by Rick - 21 February 2018 at 11:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 11:21am
But are you fishing in a place with sturgeon?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 11:37am
Originally posted by FLOUDERMN FLOUDERMN wrote:

Originally posted by todobien todobien wrote:

does 6 inch catch sturgeon?
My observer records show diffirent,i was observed just about every morning for about a month by Marine PatrolBig smile no turtles no sturgeon just Carp and Gars and few menhaden!!Shocked

So how random was that?  Sounds like the DMF has found their man in Management Unit A! 





Edited by Rick - 21 February 2018 at 12:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Rick Rick wrote:

Originally posted by FLOUDERMN FLOUDERMN wrote:

Originally posted by todobien todobien wrote:

does 6 inch catch sturgeon?
My observer records show diffirent,i was observed just about every morning for about a month by Marine PatrolBig smile no turtles no sturgeon just Carp and Gars and few menhaden!!Shocked

So how random was that?  Sounds like the DMF has found their man in Management Unit A! 




I want to thank flounderman for taking observers, from what the Division reports, he is in the minority.  I think the word you meant was "representative" of the entire fishery.  Which I doubt he is on many levels.
The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 2:43pm


Chris-  I took FM's comment to mean "alternative platform" observations....and no, flounderman hardly represents the average fisherman.  To be observed every morning for a month was certainly neither random nor representative of "the fishery".

Are such actions "normal" in the ITP monitoring programs? 

Does such monitoring meet the definition of "normal" in the definition below?


Originally posted by FLOUDERMN FLOUDERMN wrote:

My observer records show diffirent,i was observed just about every morning for about a month by Marine Patrol

Alternative platform trips include 2-Man Observer Trips - observers on Division operated boats; and Marine   Patrol - observations made by Marine Patrol officers who come into visual contact with commercial fishing boats using large or small mesh gill nets while conducting normal Marine Patrol operations.

What's the chance of FM being observed everyday for a month by Patrol officers meeting the definition above?...pretty near zero.


Again, the #1 reason DMF management is denigrating the 2015 Hadley survey is because of the revelation of, at minimum, 20% undocumented effort with the vast majority being in the anchored gillnet fisheries.

Terms of the ITP are clear-

3. Monitoring Requirements. NCDMF will maintain a monitoring program that consists of a combination of onboard and alternate platform observers, trip ticket program, and marine patrol officer activities (when needed). NCDMF will monitor six primary management units in inshore waters as described in the conservation plan.
 
a. Large mesh gillnets – NCDMF will monitor at least 7% (with a goal of 10%) of large mesh (≥4.0 ISM) gillnet trips in each area during each of 3 seasons (i.e., spring, summer, and fall) as defined in the conservation plan.  
 
b. Small mesh gillnets – NCDMF will monitor at least 1% (with a goal of 2%) of small mesh (<4.0 ISM) gillnet trips in each area during each of 3 seasons (i.e., spring, summer, fall) as defined in the conservation plan.

NCDMF will use data collected through the Observer Program using the methodologies outlined in the conservation plan to conduct annual analyses to better understand bycatch estimates for Kemp’s ridley and green turtles. Weekly and seasonal estimated sea turtle takes will be calculated by NCDMF to ensure authorized estimated and/or observed take levels are not being approached. Separate estimates must be made for live and dead bycaught turtles.  For purposes of these estimates, any observed, captured turtles that are released alive, uninjured, and in a vigorous condition will be used to produce the“live” estimates. Observed, captured turtles in any other condition will be used for the “dead” estimates. The cumulative total of the individual weekly estimates must also be calculated by NCDMF to determine whether the maximum authorized take levels in Section III are being approached. NCDMF shall inform NMFS promptly if the authorized take levels are being approached.  

NCDMF will monitor data collected and identify, in a timely manner, whether unusually high sea turtle bycatch occurred within a management unit or subunit, such that NCDMF determines that closure and evaluation is necessary to (1) avoid approaching a take limit, or (2) provide adequate protection for sea turtles by implementing additional mitigation measures, or (3) to allow sea turtles to complete a seasonal migration and minimize interactions. NCDMF will confer with the NMFS on the identification of hotspots.




Edited by Rick - 21 February 2018 at 3:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 5:07pm

In eleven months... ONLY in NC, because we're different!

...talking about gillnet observer coverage.  This was in the Feb briefing book.  I've added in my notes.

KEEP IN MIND- this is ONLY anchored large and small mesh in internal waters.  It does not include strike net yards or any external nets in the ocean within three miles.






Edited by Rick - 21 February 2018 at 5:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bread Man 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 6:35pm
Rick, whoever did that, it is awesome. They are striking reds in my area now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 23Mako Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 8:51pm
Didn't that stupid drum know not to swim into a flounder net!!!!




Edited by 23Mako - 22 February 2018 at 8:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtoler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2018 at 10:16am
Carp and gar? What happens to the carp and gar when they are removed from the net?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kshivar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2018 at 10:28am
Rhetorical right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote todobien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2018 at 10:56am
I see carp for sale at an Asian market in Raleigh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtoler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2018 at 3:52pm
Are they bycatch, discards, kept to sell? Aren't they freshwater fish?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 March 2018 at 10:03am
Everyone should take the time to listen to the audio from the Feb-2018 MFC Meeting discussion on Southern Flounder-



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chriselk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 March 2018 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Rick Rick wrote:

Everyone should take the time to listen to the audio from the Feb-2018 MFC Meeting discussion on Southern Flounder-




DMF sent me the powerpoint presentation that is described in the above audio.  You can access it here:

The above comments are my personal opinion and do not represent those of any organizations or agencies I may be a member of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2018 at 8:45am
Rick those yardage charts are all estimates,kinda like that Recreational Fisherman Catch Data!!I wouldn't bet the ranch that those numbers are anywhere close to being accurate!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FLOUDERMN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2018 at 8:52am
Rick, i was observed more times than not this yr,not very hard when your 1 of 2 in 20miles that fish Flounder nets and have been setting same places same times of the yr for the last 28yrs.Some days he was waiting at nets 6am some days come after i already fished 1/2 my stand but yeah more coverage this yr in my area than yrs past thats a fact!!!

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